Breaking down language learning

[Hardufyr]

When learning a new language, for example a Romance language, are there any important things to do besides these?

- Learn all the important words in the closed word classes (pronouns, prepositions, conjunctions etc)

- Learn the grammar

- Learn pronunciation

- Get a grasp of semantics and syntax

- Learn the most important words in the open word classes (nouns, verbs, adjectives etc)

- Learn common phrases and idioms (for example it wouldn't be obvious to someone who doesn't speak English what "An arm and a leg" means, despite knowing what each of the words by themselves mean)

When that's done, are there any other important things to consider when learning a language?

[Eugene111]

(1) Before the above: Formulate a clear motivation for learning a foreign language. Without it you might be trying to learn a language for years without much progress. An obvious example of such a motivation is a better(-paid) job. Which means more money! And, suddenly, a childhood dream of visiting, say, Nauru is within grasp!!

(2) Along with the above: (a) Immerse yourself in the language environment, if possible (country visit). If not possible, locate a local club of the foreign language you’re studying. Attend it regularly. ( Regularly listen to TV/radio programs in the language you’re studying.

(3) In addition to the above (from personal experience which has resulted in TOEFL score of 293 out of 300 and GMAT Verbal Score of 89% below (native languages: Ukrainian/Russian): (a) Fall in love with a dictionary!!! Enjoy reading it! (BTW, WC is a great place for that; it may sound sordid, but it works!!). ( Read all grammar books you can lay your hands on! If you’re preparing for something like GMAT (Graduate Management Admissions Test) in the language of your choice, get 5-10 practice books and study them hard. © Find a friend who is as passionate about learning the language of your choice as you are—you’ll find endless topics for conversation about new words, abstrusive grammar constructions etc. And the spirit of competition will help drive you forward.

[Hardufyr]

My motivation mainly the pure joy of it. I have a great appetite for books, and I'd like to taste the works of these authors in their original language: Peter Handke, Michel Houellebecq, José Saramago and Snorre Sturlason (who wrote our national epic some thousand years ago, in Old Norse, which is almost like Icelandic).

Being able to read and enjoy the language is more important to me than being able to speak it, although it'd be fun to converse. I might do some chatroulette video chats in my target langauges. Perhaps also Verbling.

My objective though is reading comprehension, and getting an ok pronounciation would be a bonus. My plan is to learn the thousand most important words, and then read a translated book (for example Eisenthron) that I've read in other langauges. That way contextual clues becomes even easier to pick up, since I've already read it several times over.

The other motivation I have for learning languages is getting more familiar with memorization techniques. I know how to learn pi with thousands of digits, but I am not that familiar with the rest of the memorization techniques, and by learning language I'll get accustomed to using them (method of loci based on lexical classes and the first letter of words, and a lot more). I am not there yet; I have barely begun.

I've read somewhere that you can run through all the 25 levels of Duolingo in 118 hours, if you're quick, and that will get you to basic speaking ablility. Like you, I am a big fan of dictionaries, especially etymological entries, since it also, indirectly, says something about history. What I am a bit uncertain of though, is if there's something missing from the list I made in the original post.

P.S. Impressive TOEFL and GMAT score!

[Hardufyr]

P.P.S. I have for long toyed with thought of setting up an offshoring business in Ukraine, beginning with a couple of bright freelancers slash employees, whom gets to B2 or C1 In Norwegian, and then'll do office work a whole lot better than the dull Norwegians they'd replace. I've thought about it for like four or five years. Around Christmas last year there was, a bit to my surprise, a news report on local television of a company that does almost that thing: handling customer calls (!) in Norwegian, instead of just emails, from outside of Kiev. I think we'll see an explosive growth in such businesses. Accounting (with the double-entry bookkeeping system) is in its fundamental way quite similar in many countries, so that's primarily what I've thought about. Not sure how it would float, though. There are bound to be obstacles.

[Eugene111]

Have you already tried reading something by Snorri Sturluson? I suspect any writings in 13th century Icelandic should be very difficult to understand, especially considering that the Icelandic is not your native tongue (even though Norwegian and Icelandic are somewhat related).

Have you already tried reading a book in a foreign language knowing only “the thousand most important words”? And are you sure you’d be able to truly enjoy a foreign-language piece of literature by relying predominantly on “contextual clues”? Even Eisenthron. I would assume you don’t remember every page and paragraph of the book.

I’m asking these tough questions only because my personal experience with German tells me that even 15000+ German words don’t allow me to just relax and enjoy my German military humor book. And that book is not supposed to be difficult!

As for memorizing foreign words: in my opinion, the key problem is transferring words from short-term memory to long-term memory. During my German study I tried once memorizing about 500 words in a single day (and they have already been in my dictionary; that is, I’ve already repeated them several times before). Next morning I knew almost all of the English translations. But in a couple of weeks, let alone months, really many of these got forgotten. So, I’m not sure how this can be managed, except for permanent repetition, regular swot.

As for speaking ability: In my opinion, one should not begin speaking a foreign language until that person has already read quite a few texts in the language being learned and mastered grammar basics (= several months). Otherwise, erroneous speaking patterns may be acquired that would later be pretty hard to alter.

As for setting up a business in Ukraine: Over the past year Ukrainian Hryvnia (UAH—Ukrainian currency) has collapsed from about UAH8/US$ to UAH22/US$ (a week or two ago the exchange rate was almost UAH40/US$). Consumer prices, however, have soared, it seems, no more than 100%. Bottom line: If you have any foreign currency in Ukraine and exchange it into UAH, you feel pretty rich. The same is true for salaries—they’re pretty low, in US dollar terms. For example, an interpreter/translator of Finnish is offered about $250, of Swedish—about $350, of Dutch—about $500. My brief search didn’t produce any results about salaries of interpreters/translators of Norwegian.

[Trellum]

Motivation is the key, I honestly don't feel like learning this language, but I really have to! So I have made  list of my motivations to learn it, a very nice and long one.  I use a NLP technique in which I go thru each motivation in my list and visualize it. So whenever I feel like I don't want to study, I start thinking of those motivations in my list and I immediately start visualizing each

As for the language itself, well, I read somewhere the key was to learn a lot adverbs, because those are really important and can change the meaning of everything. Hence when learning vocabulary one should focus on them first, then the rest is supposed to come naturally once you study the other words. Sadly I can see this working with english, but not with the language I'm studying... at least not always.

Another recommendation... keep listening and practice the language!

[sidney]

You also forgot to mention to learn the slang language of the country that you plan to stay in or the slang words of the particular language itself. Some slang words are widely used and can be confusing for foreign people.

[VNtomboy]

About your pronunciation point. I don't think you should try and *learn* how to pronounce words. I don't know any native speaker (of any language) who understands the phonetics written in the dictionary. Nowadays, it's much easier to pick up pronunciation through listening to other people talk, and if you keep at it, you'll start to get a sense of how words are supposed to be spoken.

One tip I'd highly recommend beginners of any language to do is read CHILDREN'S books. They're always grammatically correct (compared to textbooks which are sometimes hit or miss), they have plenty of pictures and are super easy to read and digest. It helped me a lot when I started out learning English and French

[lushlala]

About your pronunciation point. I don't think you should try and *learn* how to pronounce words. I don't know any native speaker (of any language) who understands the phonetics written in the dictionary. Nowadays, it's much easier to pick up pronunciation through listening to other people talk, and if you keep at it, you'll start to get a sense of how words are supposed to be spoken.

One tip I'd highly recommend beginners of any language to do is read CHILDREN'S books. They're always grammatically correct (compared to textbooks which are sometimes hit or miss), they have plenty of pictures and are super easy to read and digest. It helped me a lot when I started out learning English and French

That's a very interesting point you make about using children's books to help you learn a foreign language, VNtomboy ! I never thought about this, but I can definitely see how it could work. It's really simplified and made very easy, so it would be interesting to try this approach. Thanks for the tip

[VNtomboy]

That's a very interesting point you make about using children's books to help you learn a foreign language, VNtomboy ! I never thought about this, but I can definitely see how it could work. It's really simplified and made very easy, so it would be interesting to try this approach. Thanks for the tip

It really, really is. The thing is, some people are reluctant to try children's books because they think that they're above that level or simple because they're so stuck on the fact that it's children's books and they're adults so they shouldn't have to read such things. It honestly baffles me how some people can think that way, but each to their own I guess

[Hardufyr]

About your pronunciation point. I don't think you should try and *learn* how to pronounce words. I don't know any native speaker (of any language) who understands the phonetics written in the dictionary. Nowadays, it's much easier to pick up pronunciation through listening to other people talk, and if you keep at it, you'll start to get a sense of how words are supposed to be spoken.

My motto is "if it's not fun, you're doing it wrong", so what I am thinking about - and I am not sure how effective it'd be - is to both read and listen to great audio books in the target langauge, and then read aloud and record the quotes I like the best, and then get feedback from a native speaker on the pronounciation. Reading the same quote (for example a passage of a hundred words) over and over until I get it right.

And I have signed up for the free IPA course at Memrise, and am considering buying the IPA set over at Fluent Forever. And then listen and read the 100 most common words and get feedback on my pronounciation on them until they are okay. Not great, but okay.

[lushlala]

You're so right about the fun aspect! I get really bored and soon lose interest if something I'm engaged in ends up being monotonous, it becomes like a chore!