Trellum
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Posts posted by Trellum
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There is a group of multi-language learners that even I have my doubts about. These are the young folks that are studying between 5 and 30 languages at a time, none of them above A1. I read about how they study. Typically they average 10 or 15 minutes a day in a language. Imo, that’s not enough to ever bring a language to a high level. But these people think if they keep it up, eventually they will reach C2. It’s unfortunate, because they are lead by a handful of enthusiasts who claim this method works. Like I said, I have my doubts.
There’s nothing wrong with learning a language to a low level; please don’t be discouraged if this is your goal. It’s not for me, but I respect everyone’s goal. What I hate to see is someone who wants to reach a high level in a language following this method.
There is no negativity directed to people learning several languages at once, we were talking about the same group you were referring to in the quote above. That group of kids learning 5 or more languages at once and none of them above A1. Hence the ''negativity'' aka freedom of speech. A kid in particular inspired this thread, it was with him in mind that I created this thread, because he is currently learning more than 5 languages at once, but none of them above A1 or A2, even his English is quite deficient. I have advised him to focus on 2 or 3 languages at a time, but he won't listen.
I personally think it's crazy! And I wonder how he has time for that... going to school, having a gf, adding people to practice languages... he spends a lot time on sites like speaky. I really have no idea how he does it! I feel sorry for the kid, he wants to learn so many languages, but I doubt he will ever master them all like that... last time I checked he was learning 11 languages at once.
I've met kids who have done well learning several languages, but they have never gone past the 3 language at once mark. To me the ideal is reaching a C2 level before embarking on a different one. I might learn french and German at once once I am done with dutch (since it's very important for me to master it as soon as possible). But I'd not call that multiple language learning
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Well, it's official... I am just 8 weeks away from taking that very important exam I've been talking a lot about all those months. It's official, the fees for the exam are paid, the plane ticket is there, the embassy appointment is confirmed. And here I am... hoping I'm already well past the A1 level in dutch. I wish I could say I feel very confident, but I really don't feel that confident yet. I still have to memorize 100 questions with their respective 100 pictures D: And to my horror... yes... I will only have one minute to answer each question. Everything is timed. As if taking that exam in a city so far from my on wasn't stressing enough.
I'm not organizing well I think, I am reviewing the course from lesson 21 til 65. At least online, getting more familiar with the content, I still have to review lesson 1 til 20 though. Then memorize those 100 questions (even though I will only need 30 of them - they will randomly pick them). I hope my brain doesn't act up (I've a serious neurological problem) and my memory doesn't go blank!
I just feel I might not be doing enough
I haven't even completed my brain maps! But this week I hope I can do it. I also hope I can complete my Memrise course, but I've been thinking I might have to restructure it. That basically means more work Oh well, I just hope I can pass that test! -
I think I have already stumbled across this learning method called "Active Listening" when I took the short course in Teaching English as a Second Language. And yes, I do believe this would be an effective way of acquiring knowledge since both speaking and listening skills of the students are being honed. Anyway, I am glad this totally worked on your end.
Thanks
I'm actually a bit confused to see this this thread in the general English learning section, I am almost certain I originally posted it on the general language learning one. I'd have never posted this thread on this section, since i wasn't referring to an English course, but a dutch course. I'm feeling tempted to report this thread, because it doesn't even belong here D: And to be honest I wasn't very happy when I opened the book and noticed it was one of those active listening ones, but things have gone well It gets so boring sometimes, but this method is not as a bad as I thought, I'm no longer a baby who can learn languages by just listening, but I've done well despite that, hehehehe. Not bad! -
Hey all.
Well, though I've also not heard of "active listening" throughout my 30+ years as an ESL teacher, I suspect that I know what Trellum experienced in the class; it was actually one of the core activities that I used throughout my career.
To describe (in just a few words, hard for me! ha) what I did:
Students will not be able to comprehend strings of sounds (utterances) until they have developed a "sound bank" of their own. This "sound bank" is a set of utterances (usually full sentences) which help the student when trying to recognize sounds that they hear. Just sitting and listening will not contribute to the development of this "sound bank"-- that is a passive activity. Students have to get the muscles moving, and those will be the mouth muscles.
Now, this will not be simply repeating sentences over and over again. It will be sound manipulation exercise, meant to strengthen articulation muscles as well as to help overcome obstacles when trying to string sounds together. There will be a great deal of substitution involved, so a basic pattern may be worked upon, creating the base and words will be changed. A very simple exercise might be:
It's a book. (chair) It's a chair. (table) It's a table. (cup) It's a cup.
The emphasis would be on the rhythm of the utterance, the stringing together of words (it would never be: IT (PAUSE) IS (PAUSE) A (PAUSE) CUP, but rather [IT sa CAP].
No matter how much you wiggle your ears, you will not improve your listening comprehension through passively listening to speech. You will have to produce that speech as close as you can to the expected pronunciation in order to develop that "sound bank" (and not individual sounds, again, utterances!) that you will use to recognize what you are hearing.
Perhaps because the student is actively doing something to improve comprehension, the course referred to in the OP was called "active listening", though I find that term kind of misleading and more marketing than descriptive of the process. Kind of like the "Natural Method" which was anything but "natural"....ha.
peace,
revel.
Actually this post wasn't meant to be on the English learning section, it was supposed to be in the general language learning. I hope a moderator can put it back in the place where it belongs. And yes, the course I am STILL using to learn dutch IS based on ACTIVE LISTENING. I should know, because I used to be a teacher as well. At first I thought it wasn't working so well for me, but guess what? I started from zero and now I think I am on the level A1 according to the EU guidelines. Active listening does work for some people, basically you learn almost intuitively, by listening and repeating sentences and the look up the meaning. The repeat the process over and over. I'd have preferred a course with a more user friendly method, with at least some clear grammar bits and explanations, but no 100% active listening right there. It's the ''Naar Nederland'' book.
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When I was younger, I wanted to learn Japanese and Korean. Japanese because I liked anime (cliché, I know) and wanted to study abroad there.. but after a few attempts on learning I just gave up. I realized that I don't have the drive or passion for the language. I just have absolutely no interest in learning it. So I gave up and moved on to the next one, which was Korean. The reason why I wanted to learn it is pretty much the same as the reason why I wanted to learn Japanese, except replace the 'anime' part with K-Pop, so that's cliché number two. I gave up and stopped learning the language for the same exact reason.
After that I really just stuck with English - practicing it and improving it. Recently though, I'm starting to be interested in learning Spanish.. and by recent I mean recent. I literally just started learning it a few days ago, and I'm actually enjoying it! I don't know why I want to though. I don't listen to Spanish songs and I have no interest in studying abroad in Spain whatsoever. It's quite sudden. A week ago I had absolutely no interest in learning Spain. Never had the desire to learn it either.
I'm the kind of person who can't learn a language unless I'm genuinely interested in it. No matter how much I try, if I don't like the language I just won't get it. Studied Chinese for two years and literally the only thing I can do right now is count to ten.Best of luck to you then
I hope you manage to learn Spanish, knowing more than 2 languages is very nice and is bound to impress a lot people (a great conversation starter as well as a great ice breaker if used right). Learning a new language is the best long term investment ever, I know it because I am sure if it wasn't because I learnt English when I was 16... I'd not be where I am right now. So best of luck to you I hope you stay motivated! -
I must admit that I wasn't a believer in the ''active listening'' method, since I thought that only worked well for children (we all learned our mother language that way), but as I've progressed wit my dutch course, @Kaffi I am now a firm believer that active listening does work. The more you read and repeat sentences right after listening to the recording of a native speaker the better! I'm still not very happy with this course I am using, but I have to admit it's not as bad as I thought t would be
I do remember a lot phrases now! I only need to learn more new words, listen to more dutch in different contexts and I will be all set! -
I'm not very familiar with German, but I am somewhat familiar with dutch, and I know both of them are really similar. I know grammatically speaking they are not so similar, but I can easily see the differences, specially when it comes to English. I have noticed that the lack of a separate word for ''when'' and ''if'' can make the dutch sound really hesitant, and sometimes I do wonder if that is how they perceive the world? The fact they lack a separate for for ''when'' and ''if'' makes me wonder what other surprises I'll find on the way. In short, yes I believe your language can really be a determinant when it comes to how you see the world.
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Right now I really think of learning German in the future because (to my amazement) it seems that even though I will be living in the Netherlands... it might be a huge advantage to know German! So right after I am done with dutch I might focus on German or french. I never thought that even inside the Netherlands it would be important to know German, I mean, while looking for potential jobs I've noticed some employers ask the person to be fluent in both dutch and German, something German as a plus. But that made me see it is important to learn German.
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I was told the same about Dutch
Plus learning dutch and taking the inburgering examen is something I need to do before I even think of moving to the Netherlands, I think it's the same for people going to Germany. I was told by so many people clearing to speak dutch well (mostly Brits) was't necessary at all, but I had to explain to them that when oyu are a tourist it's so easy to get by only using English in the Netherlands, but not when you are settling there for good. You need to learn to speak the language well in order to find a good job there, plus isn't safe to assume everyone you will encounter will speak or understand English. I've yet to feel comfy speaking dutch to be honest, but I think I will pass the test, it's a A1 one, I just need to study daily
Hopefully nice I am done with that test I will feel more comfortable =D I really don't feel so joyful studying the language by the well, but the advantage is that I understand some German now too, because dutch and German are so similar! -
I have already tried learning the Japanese language. I am still not fluent in Nihonggo though, but I now know some of their basic greetings. Anyway, as for me, I want to study another foreign language both for fun and for serious reasons. I do want to explore various cultures and languages for research purposes, and at the same time, I want to be able to enjoy the experience of doing it. I believe they go hand in hand.
That sounds great
So I guess you really like the Japanese culture! I had a friend who wanted to learn Japanese for the same reason. I think I feel the exact same way towards Norwegian, for the simple fact I love that country and I used to live and work there when I was younger. I love that country and its culture, I am so interested in its history, mythology and culture. Everything about that country fascinates me, I even love their home decor! <3 I think I have different reasons to learn different languages as well Learning Dutch is just a chore, English was a natural process, but learning Norwegian will be a true pleasure! -
I also have some languages that I would love to learn in the future:
1. French
2. Spanish
3. German
For me, I'm more of learning a language since it is fun. I have no tests or requirements to take that requires a knowledge of a certain language. Although, I would love to be an English teacher to foreign students here like Koreans and Japanese. And to teach them effectively, I think I need to master their language. So that could be another reason as to why I'm learning certain languages. Good luck to us and all the other learning a new language!
That is great, you know? I have noticed in Europe talking those 3 languages is very important (plus English, of course). A lot good jobs seems to ask for someone who is multilingual. So I'd also like to learn french and German, since I already speak french and English. I think that if you know all those languages you can easily be understood almost everywhere in Europe
For me the monetary motivation is very important, but I still dream of having time to learn languages for fun... I'd still like to learn Norwegian, because I totally love Norway. Best of luck to you, I have heard Korean is not easy to learn at all! A girl I know married a Korean, she's been there a couple of years and she hasn't made such a great progress. -
I plan to start learning french once I am done with dutch, simply because I will be living in a country that is very close to France and Belgium. There is a big chance I can get a better job if I become fluent in french. I would also like to learn German after that, for the same reason. Over there a lot good jobs ask for people who speak English, Spanish, dutch, German and french! That sounds like a lot languages, but I believe I'm half-way
Very soon I might be fluent in Dutch, I am already fluent in both English and Spanish. -
I am talking about industries because some industries are strongly tied against a language. French is believed to be tied to cuisine, since there's chefs learning in France, and the fact some cuisine words are taken straight and directly from French instead of having any other origin than that. We could also say that the mozzarella industry is taken by Italians people maybe and so Italian is a main language inside this industry. You get the idea?
Because places where people speak French for example, aren't out of scope here. Just, it feels less "tied" to any real industry. Take the example of cars, why these drivers speaks French? It is not because of their activity I guess.
Weeeell, when I think of french cuisine I think of french bakery
Like baguettes and croissants, lol. Actually there are so many terms that don't seem to have a translation to english, like ''pain au chocolate'' <----- one of my fav ones. I just checked and I noticed your mother tongue is french. Anyways, I got a bit confused because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry I will actually start studying french right after I am done with dutch -
Wow, that word is very long! Truly fascinating! I hope to learn German one day.:) Anyway, I'm also a Filipino and our language is Tagalog. It is quite easy to learn, it has the same alphabet as the English one. The only variation is that it has these letters in it: ñ and ng. I think some words in our language are also derived from the Spanish since we were colonised by them for such a long period.
I had no idea you guys had the ''ñ'' as well, but I guess it makes sense, since you guys were governed by the Spaniards for a while, so it makes sense you guys implemented some Spanish words and even letters like the 'ñ''. I think it's fascinating
I have heard you people like to eat things like ''adobo'' and ''menudo'' as well By the way, I've met a lot filipinos in the past, mostly women. -
Hey Kyogul
I'm currently studying two languages at the same time. I got like hundreds of words in one, and over a thousand in the other.
I'm at the point where learning new words will cost old ones from lack of repetition. Basically the same thing Eugene111 mentioned in post #2.
I was frustrated for months with this. This was a huge setback, since I studied but did not improve. I just didn't have the time to effectively review hundreds of words and learn let's say 10 new ones everyday (memorizing Kanji/Hanzi characters made it all even worse. uhhh and the tones in Chinese).
Finally, one day I've found solution - ANKI. I don't know if you are familiar with this software or not but it's basically a simple flashcard system.
Now the real magic Anki offers is timed repetitions in random order. The easier words get repeated less often the complex words everyday until you get it right!
After I started to use Anki on daily basis in my studies learning vocab was not a problem anymore.
So start using it, it's a god-sent seriously! It's available on all platforms I believe (Win, Mac, Android, ...)
As for what the bloggers said regarding about translating the words in your head...I have to agree with them. Do not translate words in your head, "accept" them. If you are listening to a native speaker and your trying to translate everything in your head you will not be able to keep up with the conversation. Unless you're a robot I guess, lol!
I don't know how to explain it but basically you want the word become part of you, not something you have to think about for a few seconds every time you hear it.
The picture association...not sure. It does help me sometimes when learning Japanese Kanji/Chinese Hanzi. But I try not to rely on it. You should know these things by heart.
Lol, sorry to sound so spiritual but Ｉ hope it makes sense!
Basically repeat/review a lot, relax, don't kill yourself over it, and mainly have fun!
Sometimes it takes me a week to learn some word that just doesn't stick in my head. But daily repetition will prevail in the end. It always did for me!
Hope this was helpful!
Richard
Richard, I tried installing ANKI a few months ago, sadly i couldn't get it to work for me
It kept asking me to just my laptop's clock... I tried that, but ended up feeling so frustrated because in the end I couldn't get it to work; it kept asking me the same thing over and over. I tried to find help online, but I found none It's a shame because this software sounded like a great way to learn new words. -
I personally love watching series with subs, that gives me an idea of how to use certain words and expressions I've already encountered in dutch, and since the material I am using to learn the language isn't sufficient most of the time
So watching movies and TV shows with dutch subtitles gives me a good idea of how certain words are used, also it helps me get more familiar with the language in general... because at first I had such a huge issue with the word order. -
For me the Hebrew script is the most beautiful
But sadly is one of the main reasons I don't think I will be learning colloquial Hebrew anytime soon:This is a religious text, hence the nikud
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Hi there! I think I have mentioned a couple times that when I was 16 years old or so my interest to learn a new language started. Back then I had all the time of the world, so I did that for fun! I actually wanted to learn as many languages as possible! The my top 10 back then were these:
1 - Norwegian
2 - Swedish
3 - Finnish
4 - Danish
5 - Old Norse
6 - Icelandic
7 - Estonian
8 - German
9 - Old English
10 - French
Now over a decade later I am learning Dutch, a language I never liked
Not even back when I was younger I had interest in it... So here I am! I'm learning it because I am going to have to take an exam in a few weeks. So basically I am doing this because I have to, not because I want to. Despite all that I must say this experience hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be I haven't disliked it that much! And i seem to have made some progress already What about you? Are you learning a new language for fun or is there any other reason? -
My mother tongue is Spanish
I don't think my language is that special though, the only thing that I can think of as being remotely special is the inverted question and exclamation marks: ¿¡ I guess our letter ''Ñ'' is also kinda cute and unique. A kid the other day asked me why I draw a mustache on the ''N'' letter, lol. Plus Spanish is spoken in many countries, it's one of the most widely spoken languages in the world. I guess that counts -
For me, I highly discourage studying multiple languages all at once. I always prefer to take one language at at ime, as focusing on more than one language will result in me losing interest in both. I don't mind learning multiple languages as long as they involve the basics, but if I really want to achieve some fluency, I have to concentrate on just one specific language. Language multitasking is not worth it.
I agree with you. I know a guy who is learning several languages at once, and he doesn't seem to show that much fluency in any of the many languages he has learnt... even English! His knowledge seems so shallow, I think he is the best example of why taking on several languages is a bad idea. You just can't reach an optimal level of fluency if you are taking on 4 or 5 languages at the same time, unless you are a true language learning genius.
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I am a bit lost here to be honest, what do you mean by ''industry''?? Do you mean find a place locally where people speak french? I think that would be kinda hard where I currently live, but soon I will be living in a place where I can drive for a couple hours to a place where everyone speaks french
But I don't think we will be doing that often to be honest. I do plan to learn french later though (the more languages the better chances to get a good job). -
Honestly, I think it's not that worst outside of airports rather than inside, I would even say sometimes it could be better outside, even if in the end, you will only collect mockery or people not doing any efforts at all with you. That's basically what happens with many of them, because they are not really open minded in general, instead why would you care about the fact someone is talking another language you understand or talks your language but with another accent? I mean, people in the language are the first to want it spread out, but they are the first to reject the learning speakers as well. Where's the logic here?
I think the dutch are a really special bunch
As for the french... they don't like it when you speak English to them, even if you don't know a word of french and you didn't even mean to end up stuck in their airport, somehow they expect you to speak french. If you ask me they are very arrogant people, specially in the city. As for the Dutch... well, I've been told already a lot dutch will try to speak English to me when they hear my accent But it's ok, I will answer in dutch. I'll tell them politely to talk to me in dutch, since I am trying to integrate. Sometimes you have to be very assertive -
Hi there! Well, I think this new software looks great, now it's easier to see the latest activity, and the forum feels more alive than ever! I think that helps a lot! I like that ''latest activity'' bar to the right =D It's awesome!
As for Memrise, I think on its own isn't a good way to learn a language at all, but if you use it along with a course I think it's such a great way to learn a lot new words
My course so far wasn't enough to be honest, but now I know more words So it's easier to understand what I read and watch on TV. I'm so excited right now... working on my own Memrise course for English speakers. I'm on a race against time, but I think I will make it on time. -
I have neurological problem and tend to forget things easily, yet you don't see me losing faith or panic about my exam in just 2 months
I'm 28 year old, far from the teen who learned English all on her own in just 6 months without the help of any kind of book or dictionary... I'm so far from that teen, yet, I don't feel discouraged! My memory is bad, but if I keep on working hard to remember the things I have learnt I know I will eventually learn Dutch and pass that test
I haven't even completed my brain maps! But this week I hope I can do it. I also hope I can complete my Memrise course, but I've been thinking I might have to restructure it. That basically means more work 
I'm actually a bit confused to see this this thread in the general English learning section, I am almost certain I originally posted it on the general language learning one. I'd have never posted this thread on this section, since i wasn't referring to an English course, but a dutch course. I'm feeling tempted to report this thread, because it doesn't even belong here D: And to be honest I wasn't very happy when I opened the book and noticed it was one of those active listening ones, but things have gone well 
Not even back when I was younger I had interest in it... So here I am! I'm learning it because I am going to have to take an exam in a few weeks. So basically I am doing this because I have to, not because I want to. Despite all that I must say this experience hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be
What's your level?
in Language Learning
Posted · Edited by Trellum
Ok guys, let's talk about the languages we know and our levels. For that we are going to use the level definitions used by the Common European Framework, they are as follows:
A thread I read recently made me thing about this, since there are people on this forum who are learning several languages or that they already speak several languages... I thought it'd be interesting to know what level they considered their languages to be at. I find that super interesting
I was actually think about this today... we rarely talk about levels, but lately this is something that is always on my mind, since i need to have a level of A1 in dutch in order to pass my test.
So here it goes:
Your turn guys! Please feel free to also add how long you have been studying each language!